I always come up against a brick wall when I'm asked to believe that God, who loves everyone, without exception, picks certain people from before they were born and CAUSES them to fail (not be part of the Elect) after which he will punish and torture them for that failure.
Is God manipulating the minds of the global oligarchy who practise hideous cruelties on children?
I feel the same way! I question why would a loving God that claims to love us allow children, who are pure souls, be sex trafficked, abused and tortured!?
I can get my head round the notion that God lets things happen that Satan is basically inspiring, but not that God Himself is manipulating people to do evil things. That goes over my head. As does the whole thing of people being literally brought into the world to end up as tortured souls (and I'm also asked to feel joyful about that, even if some of them are people I love). I'm obviously missing something.
You're not missing anything Sheila. This is an absurdly wrong and spiritually abusive interpretation of scripture being put forward in this article. I say this whilst affirming the sovereignty of God.
I challenge you to quote anything from my article that is "absurdly wrong" or "spiritually abusive". If you can't, then all you're doing is falsely accusing me. I didn't say the things Sheila is concerned about, so don't project it onto me.
“A mans heart diviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps” Proverbs 16:9
When the pharaohs heart was hardened, it was a judgment…just like when adam and eve ate the fruit, there was a judgment…consequences to actions…God is not a puppet master Terry. We have agency and he is sovereign. What we do matters, thank God!
“We are not responsible for history” reminds me of someone who said “God doesn’t need us” - whats your point? What do you even mean by that?
Seriously, the undertone of this writing sounds abusive and defeatist. It sounds like a twisted take on scripture.
If you want to have your puny (just like mine, in comparison with God's) human mind and understanding twisted a little more, read 2Samuel24:1,17 and then read 1Chronicles 21:1,8. I have to simply say to God and to myself, God, Your thoughts are infinitely higher than my thoughts, and Your ways than my ways. It's good that You are sovereign and all-wise and loving beyond our capacity to understand.
And just to show that there are always higher plans going on than our human wisdom can grasp, if you read the whole story, the threshing floor that David bought, and upon which he set up the altar and offered a sacrifice to God to end the plague brought on by his ordering the census, became the site of Solomon's temple and its altar of sacrifice, the foreshadowing of the Cross of Christ, on the same Mt Moriah, by now Jerusalem / Mt Zion, where Abraham was directed by God to go to sacrifice his only son.
This was very thought provokingTerry, and your theories and conclusion are well presented.
I think I remember you stating something somewhere to the point of God’s work in His creation continues beyond the physical body after the grave, and that people may have the chance to repent and turn upon seeing the Truth. Not sure if this is in line with Christian universalism, or how the theories differ. And how your theories may differ from Calvinism.
Very interesting topics, I will be looking forward to the discussions!
I disagree with your analysis of God hardening Pharaoh's heart: read the whole account.
God first gave Pharaoh many opportunities to acknowledge his authourity and working in the plagues Moses brought on his land - even his own magicians eventually said "this is the finger of God".
But he stubbornly refused to acknowdege this, and only THEN did God harden his heart.
To know something beforehand is not to cause it neccessarily.
I disagree with your analysis of God hardening Pharaoh's heart: read the whole account.
God first gave Pharaoh many opportunities to acknowledge his authourity and working in the plagues Moses brought on his land - even his own magicians eventually said "this is the finger of God".
But he stubbornly refused to acknowdege this, and only THEN did God harden his heart.
To know something beforehand is not to cause it neccessarily.
Yes, Pharaoh was a bad guy before God made him worse. But that very act of hardening his heart is presumably what stopped him from finally relenting, turning around, and repenting of his sins. Don’t we all need God’s grace in order to repent, after we’ve been disobedient?
From the Christian perspective, Pharaoh is perfect example of somebody who God could have converted at the last minute. But instead he hardened his heart and doomed him to utter ruin. Why? Much like Judas, who was doomed to betray Jesus when Satan possessed him. Judas was not a great guy either, but did he really deserve to have Satan possess him and then betray Jesus? He even tried to give the money back and apologized. In the end he killed himself.
The only thing that truly respects God’s plans for these people is that they were doomed from the start. Not that God simply knew, but he cut off that final chance to turn around.
Yes, God did cut off any final chance to turn around, but only after they had consciously and repeatedly, made choices to continue in wrong.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 describes this very thing:
[10] and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved. [11] Consequently God sends on them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.
I draw your attention to that word: 'consequently'. (Other versions made word this as: 'Therefore', or 'For this reason')
It is not that God pre-determined their fate , but rather they themselves made choices that ultimately resulted in God's judgement.
"Predestine" is the word used in the Bible, which is even stronger than pre-determine! Paul undeniably states that God creates some people for the purpose of being used for bad things. There's no getting around that.
The passage you cited must be taken into consideration too, but how does it fit? This is a future prophecy about the very last days of the world, with a special group of extremely hardened people who reject God's warnings as He's preparing to judge the world. It's a special event, not a general rule we would apply to random people today.
I think if we're honest, we see many examples of Christians today, and throughout history, of people who "hated the truth" and yet converted to Christ when God opened their eyes. The Apostle Paul himself hated Jesus before his eyes were opened (actually, blinded on the road to Damascus) by God. The history of the Gospel is that it can indeed save those who seem hopeless. The one who determines whether the truth will sink in is God and God alone.
The pattern throughout the New Testament is that we can't predict who will be saved or not. God has saved many people who had the heart of Pharaoh with the Gospel, whereas Jesus says many will cry out to him "Lord, Lord" on the last day, and he will reject them. God chooses, not us.
So if Elon Musk is a "fake genius" (which I would completely disagree with) , and governments are misguided and corrupt (morally and otherwise) offer some real world practical advice on the peaceful coexistence of men. I'm a completely flawed Christian, but you and I both function in the here and the now.
Like others have stated above, it is highly paradoxical to come to understand the goodness of God, and yet ponder the implications of how things are ran if it is a narrative.
Of course, we are nothing to question God, then why give us a faculty in which to do it? He knows that these natiral conclusions will be made, yet I can see this being used as a mechanism of faith displayment.
How can I spread the word about the love of God to someone who has known only suffrage comprared to my relatively blessed life? Or, entire people groups who have heard the name of Jesus but obviously wouldn't come to believe.
Then I think, well Christianity is a global network. I am of the firm belief that a christian exists in almost every part of the world, irrespective of the culture that inhabits it, so it's not necessarily a culturally thing in my eyes and the rest of humanity would simply be fenced or playing for the satanic conspiracy—knowingly or unknowingly.
It still boils down to God doesn't seem to value human life or carnal life in general, but he values people. Which may conflict with him not being a respecter of persons, unless the value of the person has come after they have filled the slotted role for the script?
Terry, would you mind providing a brief and succinct defense against philosophical determinism?
I appreciate and understand your theory in essence. I went to a Dutch reformed university after all, and I personally identify as a supralapsinarian (which is the view that God knew about the fall and created the world in knowledge that a fallen world would maximize his love through Jesus Christ dying on a cross).
However, with that being said, if Christianity is ontologically equivalent to philosophical determinism it makes God the author and source of evil, and renders life philosophically meaningless.
I always come up against a brick wall when I'm asked to believe that God, who loves everyone, without exception, picks certain people from before they were born and CAUSES them to fail (not be part of the Elect) after which he will punish and torture them for that failure.
Is God manipulating the minds of the global oligarchy who practise hideous cruelties on children?
Very good question. I'll be discussing this more
Thanks Terry. I'm not being flippant - I would like to understand, so I look forward to reading more on the subject.
I feel the same way! I question why would a loving God that claims to love us allow children, who are pure souls, be sex trafficked, abused and tortured!?
I can get my head round the notion that God lets things happen that Satan is basically inspiring, but not that God Himself is manipulating people to do evil things. That goes over my head. As does the whole thing of people being literally brought into the world to end up as tortured souls (and I'm also asked to feel joyful about that, even if some of them are people I love). I'm obviously missing something.
You're not missing anything Sheila. This is an absurdly wrong and spiritually abusive interpretation of scripture being put forward in this article. I say this whilst affirming the sovereignty of God.
I challenge you to quote anything from my article that is "absurdly wrong" or "spiritually abusive". If you can't, then all you're doing is falsely accusing me. I didn't say the things Sheila is concerned about, so don't project it onto me.
“A mans heart diviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps” Proverbs 16:9
When the pharaohs heart was hardened, it was a judgment…just like when adam and eve ate the fruit, there was a judgment…consequences to actions…God is not a puppet master Terry. We have agency and he is sovereign. What we do matters, thank God!
“We are not responsible for history” reminds me of someone who said “God doesn’t need us” - whats your point? What do you even mean by that?
Seriously, the undertone of this writing sounds abusive and defeatist. It sounds like a twisted take on scripture.
If you want to have your puny (just like mine, in comparison with God's) human mind and understanding twisted a little more, read 2Samuel24:1,17 and then read 1Chronicles 21:1,8. I have to simply say to God and to myself, God, Your thoughts are infinitely higher than my thoughts, and Your ways than my ways. It's good that You are sovereign and all-wise and loving beyond our capacity to understand.
And just to show that there are always higher plans going on than our human wisdom can grasp, if you read the whole story, the threshing floor that David bought, and upon which he set up the altar and offered a sacrifice to God to end the plague brought on by his ordering the census, became the site of Solomon's temple and its altar of sacrifice, the foreshadowing of the Cross of Christ, on the same Mt Moriah, by now Jerusalem / Mt Zion, where Abraham was directed by God to go to sacrifice his only son.
This was very thought provokingTerry, and your theories and conclusion are well presented.
I think I remember you stating something somewhere to the point of God’s work in His creation continues beyond the physical body after the grave, and that people may have the chance to repent and turn upon seeing the Truth. Not sure if this is in line with Christian universalism, or how the theories differ. And how your theories may differ from Calvinism.
Very interesting topics, I will be looking forward to the discussions!
Great question, I'll respond to this
I disagree with your analysis of God hardening Pharaoh's heart: read the whole account.
God first gave Pharaoh many opportunities to acknowledge his authourity and working in the plagues Moses brought on his land - even his own magicians eventually said "this is the finger of God".
But he stubbornly refused to acknowdege this, and only THEN did God harden his heart.
To know something beforehand is not to cause it neccessarily.
I disagree with your analysis of God hardening Pharaoh's heart: read the whole account.
God first gave Pharaoh many opportunities to acknowledge his authourity and working in the plagues Moses brought on his land - even his own magicians eventually said "this is the finger of God".
But he stubbornly refused to acknowdege this, and only THEN did God harden his heart.
To know something beforehand is not to cause it neccessarily.
Yes, Pharaoh was a bad guy before God made him worse. But that very act of hardening his heart is presumably what stopped him from finally relenting, turning around, and repenting of his sins. Don’t we all need God’s grace in order to repent, after we’ve been disobedient?
From the Christian perspective, Pharaoh is perfect example of somebody who God could have converted at the last minute. But instead he hardened his heart and doomed him to utter ruin. Why? Much like Judas, who was doomed to betray Jesus when Satan possessed him. Judas was not a great guy either, but did he really deserve to have Satan possess him and then betray Jesus? He even tried to give the money back and apologized. In the end he killed himself.
The only thing that truly respects God’s plans for these people is that they were doomed from the start. Not that God simply knew, but he cut off that final chance to turn around.
Yes, God did cut off any final chance to turn around, but only after they had consciously and repeatedly, made choices to continue in wrong.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 describes this very thing:
[10] and with every kind of evil deception directed against those who are perishing, because they found no place in their hearts for the truth so as to be saved. [11] Consequently God sends on them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.
I draw your attention to that word: 'consequently'. (Other versions made word this as: 'Therefore', or 'For this reason')
It is not that God pre-determined their fate , but rather they themselves made choices that ultimately resulted in God's judgement.
"Predestine" is the word used in the Bible, which is even stronger than pre-determine! Paul undeniably states that God creates some people for the purpose of being used for bad things. There's no getting around that.
The passage you cited must be taken into consideration too, but how does it fit? This is a future prophecy about the very last days of the world, with a special group of extremely hardened people who reject God's warnings as He's preparing to judge the world. It's a special event, not a general rule we would apply to random people today.
I think if we're honest, we see many examples of Christians today, and throughout history, of people who "hated the truth" and yet converted to Christ when God opened their eyes. The Apostle Paul himself hated Jesus before his eyes were opened (actually, blinded on the road to Damascus) by God. The history of the Gospel is that it can indeed save those who seem hopeless. The one who determines whether the truth will sink in is God and God alone.
The pattern throughout the New Testament is that we can't predict who will be saved or not. God has saved many people who had the heart of Pharaoh with the Gospel, whereas Jesus says many will cry out to him "Lord, Lord" on the last day, and he will reject them. God chooses, not us.
your stuff is very interesting Terry.
So if Elon Musk is a "fake genius" (which I would completely disagree with) , and governments are misguided and corrupt (morally and otherwise) offer some real world practical advice on the peaceful coexistence of men. I'm a completely flawed Christian, but you and I both function in the here and the now.
Like others have stated above, it is highly paradoxical to come to understand the goodness of God, and yet ponder the implications of how things are ran if it is a narrative.
Of course, we are nothing to question God, then why give us a faculty in which to do it? He knows that these natiral conclusions will be made, yet I can see this being used as a mechanism of faith displayment.
How can I spread the word about the love of God to someone who has known only suffrage comprared to my relatively blessed life? Or, entire people groups who have heard the name of Jesus but obviously wouldn't come to believe.
Then I think, well Christianity is a global network. I am of the firm belief that a christian exists in almost every part of the world, irrespective of the culture that inhabits it, so it's not necessarily a culturally thing in my eyes and the rest of humanity would simply be fenced or playing for the satanic conspiracy—knowingly or unknowingly.
It still boils down to God doesn't seem to value human life or carnal life in general, but he values people. Which may conflict with him not being a respecter of persons, unless the value of the person has come after they have filled the slotted role for the script?
Terry, would you mind providing a brief and succinct defense against philosophical determinism?
I appreciate and understand your theory in essence. I went to a Dutch reformed university after all, and I personally identify as a supralapsinarian (which is the view that God knew about the fall and created the world in knowledge that a fallen world would maximize his love through Jesus Christ dying on a cross).
However, with that being said, if Christianity is ontologically equivalent to philosophical determinism it makes God the author and source of evil, and renders life philosophically meaningless.
I will address this
Thank you, take your time, and God bless. Heard it’s cold in Manitoba! Stay warm (: