“Speaking in tongues.” I’ve been in churches that said that unless you “gibbered and guttled” called “speaking in tongues,” you were not “filled with the Holy Spirit.
I’ve been in ones that the chaos of people “manifesting with demons” and others “speaking in tongues” was uncomfortable and distracting.
Most sing phrases of a song over and over and over until people go into a type of trance and start the guttural gibberish, people going to the front on their knees, crying, rhythmically dancing … it reaches a crescendo and then the “pastor” ( who might know 5 people in the congregation with no desire to actually Shepard’s the flock) brings it around to a prayer, a cherry picked Bible verse and people file out.. emotional but not edified not feeling like they e been with “brothers and sisters “ as few actually talk or care to know each other. It’s a concert and an emotional outlet, perhaps a feel good moment. They leave never cracking a Bible but looking at screens. Sad
We could talk at length about the psychology of trances, cults, and hypnotic patterns that false churches use! It's amazing how they ignore the clear teachings from 1 Corinthians
Cults, the operative word. I worked for a church that is really a cult. I watched in abject horror as people were taught, for a fee of course, to “get their prayer language” by “just saying yabadabadoo”. I only wish I had not seen and heard that. The scary thing is that rows of people seated in chairs actually parroted yabadabadoo back. I fled the vicinity. Surreal. Flintstones anyone?
Sorry but can't help but wonder, after all the obviously multiple experiences you have endured in these worrying and unscriptural places so often, why you keep going back to them; any of them ?
For my part, with fifty plus years as a tongues-speaking Christian and church-goer on at least a weekly basis, I have not encountered any of the excesses you describe in your post so cannot help but be intrigued.
Did I say that I had many experiences? I'm sure we all have different histories, but like I said, I believe God showed me what I needed to see. And since the scriptures themselves debunk the whole doctrine, no amount of supposedly "good" experiences would make a difference to me. False doctrine is false doctrine.
the replies are not in sequence here- I was replying to Denise and her equally wild accusations
. No, you did not say "many" experiences and for you to have based your dialogue and diatribe on merely one is concerning to say the least...."many" would have given more credibility -possibly, although not in the Pentecostal environment of which I am part of whereby everything is done 'decently and in order" as per scripture.
Yes; false doctrine is most certainly false doctrine or nor do 'supposedly 'good' experiences ' make one whit of difference - although once again, it is important to check if 'supposedly good' experiences is valid (if it leads to a life of transformation from a harmful and negative lifestyle to one that heals and becomes productive would you class that as 'supposed' only ? -once again, as with so much of your original post you are simply assuming. Sorry, but assumption does not equate to fact . )
Asserting that 'scriptures themselves debunk the whole doctrine ' is a breath-takingly wild and inaccurate assumption to have declared when those very scriptures most definitely do not 'debunk' tongues. I was intending to quote some of them but realized it would require quoting much of 1 Corinthians 14 itself in its entirety....please read it.
A few others to ponder over in Acts 19:6.."and when Paul had laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came on them and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy".
And you would do well if you are genuinely interested in the topic to check out 1 Corinthians 13 too and throughout the Book of Acts.
Your broadbrush of suggesting 'languages ' be substituted for 'tongues' does not hold water in many instances.
Speaking in tongues is most clearly and definitely in the Bible and I would encourage you to pray that you too may receive this precious gift or another of those listed in the Bible. The issue really ought to be with the excesses of and emphasis on , tongues, and not tongues itself
OK, you asked for it. One minor point with the Greek, a misspelling. γλῶσσα transliterates as "glōssa". The macron over the transliterated "o" (ō) differentiates between the Greek letters omega (ω) and omicron (ο). The accent (shown as circumflex over omega "ῶ") also falls on the transliterated ō, so it could be written as "glṓssa", but accents are typically omitted from transliterations, and acute over macron over "o" can be a bit difficult to make out anyway.
Oh, one other thing, not involving Greek. There was a time not that many years ago when I was attending two churches, one on Sunday mornings (mine) every week and another, intermittently in the afternoon. Both met in the same sanctuary. The former was a mainline denomination church with no particular gospel to share. The latter was an ethnic (Fijian) Pentecostal church that preached the gospel, that was instrumental in bringing me fully back into the faith. God had a hand in that, for sure.
"Speaking in tongues" was not a big thing, and I don't even know if they were doing that or just speaking in their native language. I never asked, and it only happened occasionally, not even every week. What I do know is that they liked to sing contemporary songs from earlier decades, and sometimes in Fijian, showing phonetic lyrics on the screen. This meant that I was able (already knowing the English lyrics) to sing along with them instead in their language!
I wonder how many churches "seeded by" or "belonging to" Pentecostal churches basically end up distancing themselves from the practice of babbling! I'm not sure how many other ways they deviate from biblical doctrine, but perhaps it would be acceptable with just that one change.
We know that good Christians and God will work together in any country or circumstance to help people, even in cults and weird places. This is one of the reasons you can never simply judge an individual by their group associations.
I know what you mean. I have some fairly terrible former group associations, cults. The first was a church, included in "Kingdom of the Cults" at the time, that I grew up under the influence of, from about age 12. And yet weirdly, I also learned much from them that was true, involving healthy eating (before "organic" was a thing), pagan origins of some evangelical traditions, and more. And much of that I had to later unlearn.
And I did unlearn those parts, as the organization was finally breaking up when I was back with them as an adult in my 40s, investigating whether what they had been teaching was true or not. As part of that investigation I read the Bible through 7 times in 3 1/2 years. Much of what they taught indeed was not true, and I thank God for all I went through.
Thank you Terry. For those of us who are Seeking Truth in Chrisnity & still Learning ( I became a chirstian in 2009 ) this was very educational. I note that someone below has commented that it's a "Sad Essay" & I guess it might be to some. The notion that in this present day, one still needs to see the truth through deceptions, unintentional or manufactured ( which is Rife! ) . But it wasnt a sad essay to me & I can now learn it & be resolute. Thank you
I grew up on the KJV and love it, but for a deeper study I generally prefer the NET translation. When doing a study that relies on word choice like this, I'll cross-reference multiple Bible translations and look up the Greek terms for clarity, since the translators themselves will admit that some translations are designed simply to be the easiest to read, others are more about being a literal word-for-word translation, and others are meant to give a thought-for-thought comparison. There is no one "correct" translation, which is why we have multiple to compare and the Interlinear to help give insight.
Thank you for this, Terry. It is very helpful to me. Those verses make so much more sense just by substituting the word language for tongue.
I belong to an excellent Pentecost church that literally has saved my life. They are wonderful, Bible based people.
But they do tolerate the whole speaking in tongues thing, and while praying there are some people babbling.
Personally, I put this in the category of people, just praying by themselves. I think we can all have grace and let people do that who find satisfaction in it.
I’m sorry the Pentecost Church you visited was so lacking. Sadly, nonsense creeps into everything. I’m not sure what else to say about it but I do appreciate your essay. It really does help me understand the Bible and that’s why I like reading you so much.
It's interesting to me that positive reviews of Pentecostal churches are almost always "despite the babbling" and not because of it! When I attended it, they pointed me to YouTube videos of a huge national gathering where thousands of people were filling up a stadium, and the whole thing was also very creepy and non-scriptural, so I took that as a confirmation that the core identity was corrupt. However, that doesn't mean individual Christians at a low level can't help each other and be fruitful. It's like there's a poison pill mixed into what could be a great movement (although I assume they also have other problems in their doctrine.)
"like a poison pill mixed in" - exactly. My response to your main post was to be from a very differing perspective - and I write from over fifty years of Pentecostal experience - but this comment I fully agree with. God gave His Holy Spirit very publicly on the Day of Pentecost as in Acts....it was the birth of His spiritual nation to bring us, as believers from all nations, current and future, into deeper fellowship with Him and with one another., wherever we may find us in the world. However, that snake-oil salesman ....the Devil, Satan, whatever you want to call him....through man, has inserted the aforementioned poison pill into the mix and what was intended to unite has instead often become a tool of division and disunity and religious discrimination.
PS. What do you mean by "individual Christians at a low level" helping each other ??
Have you not read verses saying there is no greater love than that of someone laying down his life for a friend ? or that all men will know we are His disciples through our showing love one for another ? that the greatest of all the gifts is love ? by their fruits you shall know them ? where men dwell in unity God commands the blessing ? etc etc.
Just what does your Christian walk consist of here, Mr Wolfe ?....the Christians I know
fast for others, go and pray for them, leave their homelands and take the Gospel to unfamiliar and even hostile areas, open their homes to the needy and feed them....
I can only assume your definition of 'low level' is very different from mine.
Oh! What a misunderstanding! I meant "low level" purely in the sense of system theory, where the "lowest level" are the real workers on the ground level, doing the important things, while the "high level" is more abstract, intellectual, and typically not very helpful! In no way did I mean "low quality", but the "ground floor" so to speak.
Thank you for the clarification here.....but even with my limited vocabulary more suitable words would have sprung to mind in that case- 'grass roots' or 'coal face' for example- and would have lessened the condescending judgmental attitude that prevails throughout your post.
There is so much I would like to have expanded on and clarified in it as this is a topic close to my heart as the result of my misinformed belief system formerly regarding tongues.
Everyone I talk to uses "low level" to mean ordinary and practical, so I can't apologize for using it. I've never even heard the term "coal face" so I guess we must come from quite different backgrounds.
Regarding Pentecostal churches I felt that I was actually very lenient by focusing mostly on the false doctrine of speaking in tongues, and not the larger hoax of the "prosperity gospel" and all the evil it has brought. I suppose the disciples were also condescending and judgmental when they attacked the liars of their own day. I didn't use nearly the same level of harsh rhetoric as they did!
If "low level' means ordinary to you and your contemporaries then how do you describe something that is regarded as being of a low status or of little importance ?...these are but two of the meanings I read in the dictionary. FYI "coal face' indicates someone who is at the front of the hard work, facing it and getting involved in it....self explanatory pretty much, as is 'low life'.
The ghastly prosperity doctrine is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with the topic of tongues.
The disciples were being neither condescending nor judgmental when "attacking" the liars of their day....and the hypocrites....they had no need to be as their plainly spoken calling-out was fully justified and accurate, unlike the condescending and judgmental words of your unjustified and inaccurate attack.
I have no idea why you chose to write such a biased and ignorant post on speaking in tongues but I do know that we, as Christians, are warned in Romans 14:4 to not 'judge another man's servant" - an important aspect to keep in mind as amongst the people you rubbish will be many who are very much going about the business of serving God. And I know a number of them.
As Christians we need to guard ourselves to avoid grieving the Holy Spirit and I believe this is the risk you are taking, as with your scathing sum-up of the Azusa Street revival as one example. As a Christian writer and man of influence and someone I have deep respect for I think you may well be called to a similar standard and judgment as pastors and other church leaders and would urge you to consider this before writing on spiritual topics until researching deeply and justly.
...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Yes, the apostles (including Paul, obviously) did travel the world and speak new languages to the locals. And they were edified by understanding the actual words being spoken!
Do we know that Paul or the others previously at Pentecost spoke exactly those languages - or did they hear themselves speaking languages they didn't learn or understand that then became the (translated) languages in the ears of those receiving them be they Greek or Arabic visitors?
Could it be that the Holy Spirit translated the language in the ears of those receiving the message of the Gospel?
Recommend checking out Sean Feucht during the c19 debacle - certainly don't agree with him on what's going on in mid east since 2023 but he was on the right side of history with the plandemic.
Yes he's a "modern" worship leader who's been to Iran, Iraq, North Korea etc. Yes he's lead meetings at the much maligned Bethel church.
Anyone that gets attacked by Antifa in Portland and lockdown church enthusiasts on MSM is still worth a listen.
Have just watched your recommended link.....remarkable and very moving..and such a reminder of those dark days - which will intensify further as the days progress. Thank you very much for sharing and reminding us of those horrors.
Yes there are charlatans in both the Christian academic and so called ministry worlds. There are also realms we only see dimly as if trying to a ascertain appearance through an old mirror.
There are times when English words do not express enough. Even the rocks cry out. Even donkeys can speak to prophets.
The miraculous us real where the rubber hits the road but the enemy doesn't want us to become people that seek and do the will of the heavenly Father. So he uses counterfeits like the 1980s TV evangelist or the "seeker friendly" services of the 1990s-2020s.
Recommend spending time in Africa - witchcraft is a weekly if not daily event in many lives. Just because the counterfeit is deeply suspect does not mean the real deal (God's) is fake.
There are times we don't know how to pray - it's never about "show" it's about human inadequacy in the face of the hardest situations. Without God there is no solution for the advanced cancer patient or broken marriage.
Speaking in other languages that one hasn't learned was pretty regular long before the 20th century and apparent revivals of Asuza street.
Pentecost was as real an event as the resurrection & ascension of Christ. It turned cowards into martyrs and changed the world.
Dispensationalism is part of the attack on faith - we need the mind of Christ as well as His heart and a willingness to be His vessel to reach the lost.
I don't know what point you're making, but I agree that God gives people gifts and that spiritual warfare is always happening. The key priority of the BIBLE (which all true Christians should obey) is to be COHERENT and EDIFYING, right? If somebody isn't doing that, they are opposing biblical truth.
So if we don't know exactly what to pray we shouldn't? Even the rocks and stones will cry out if we don't. The earth groans and waits for the revelation of the King of kings.
I for one don't claim to be eloquent in my prayers - vast majority of times so called tongues are used personally not in ear shot of others. If it is public then there must always be a translation for the edification of the gathering.
Has several experiences where praying in both English and tongues had remarkably positive effects - particularly in foreign countries where I didn't know the language.
What is incoherent to man's ears isn't to God's. He deals with millions of petitions a day. The time and place are very important be that public prayer or sermon.
“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”
The apostles spoke in tongues but it is no longer needed because we have the whole Word of God and so no longer needed. (Acts 2). I would be careful though to say also that if someone does “speak” this way that God can’t use them. We don’t know God’s thoughts and ways. In 1 Corinthians 12, speaking this way was slammed if the speaker didn’t explain or someone else was able to interpret it so that it could be beneficial.
The apostles spoke languages in order to help foreign people. Paul says that he spoke more tongues than any of them, because he was multilingual and traveled the world helping people all over. And that can still be needed. If you read the entire article you'll see that I go over those verses about needing a translator.
Not at all. He said he speaks IN tongues more than any of them, and he thanked God for it...but that tongues wasn't central to what he was saying..... that We are like a clanging gong if we aren't exhibiting love.
He also says 'to forbid not speaking in tongues' ....which is very likely due to forms of tongues being found within all sorts of groups which were of a negative nature whereas these tongues were indeed of God.
If by "whole word of God " you mean "when that which is perfect is come"...(tongues will pass away). -that which is prefect is Jesus Himself and in the flesh, not His written Word. Until then, nothing is different here.
I still don’t understand why tongues or whatever it actually is , is even a biblical thing..honestly one of those paradoxical mysteries that seemed better to just forget for the time being
My Christianity is probably not your cup of tea, ie traditional catholicism, but I have seen and experienced miracles a lot, and know many others who have too. As far as I can tell they fall into two general categories: the more impressive/flashier kind is where the natural laws of the world are turned off to accomplish something, for the salvation of souls or for those who are already very faithful and willing to accept whatever God gives (most recently my friend’s daughter was cured of terminal cancer after being flown back home to die and they had given up treatment, when our bishop gave her a relic of a Saint and she and her family prayed for her to get better and touched it to her, and then she was cured), and the other is those with a devotion to Mary having their greater and lesser needs met constantly and improbably. Like if you were playing a video game where you had some “luck” mechanic, which turned on ridiculously in your favor to provide your needs and humble wants provided that you abandoned your will to God’s, and also were happy to embrace suffering and offer it up to God for the conversion and salvation of souls and in reparation for your own and others’ sins in union with Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. When I say constantly and improbably I mean the kind if thing like: “widow’s hot water heater breaks and she doesnt have the money to replace it. Prays about it and the next day someone knocks on her door, asks for a cup of water and then randomly asks if she wants the extra hot water heater he has in the back of his pickup because of some weird and improbable reason, and then installs it for her.” My wife and I prayed a novena to St Joseph to find a place to live after we got married and the housing market had gone insane and we couldnt find anything remotely livable and affordable. Once we finished the novena we got approached with an offmarket lowball offer on a 7 bedroom house in a convenient location. It is 1900 sf on a modest lot and suits our needs. We have been blessed with four children since we moved in in late 2020, so I am glad of the bedrooms despite the architectural travesty that it would be for anyone who wasn’t going to need a modest house for a zillion kids in the modern age.
Also, for more information on the different spiritual gifts, check out Cornelius a Lapide. His exposition of them is pretty exhaustive and in depth, insofar as anything written by man can be exhaustive or in depth when it comes to spiritual things. I have the gift of tears, as does my sister, which is one of the weirder ones I guess, though it has borne a lot of fruit. My cousin, God rest his soul, had the gift of healing. I sometimes dream dreams of scenes in the future that come to pass exactly as I dream them, but with one exception they dont seem to be especially useful at all, just like I am viewing random snippets (singly, per dream) in my own life in the future with little rhyme or reason that I can discern (?). Their frequency also seems random. I am curious if you or anyone else has any insight into this.
“Speaking in tongues.” I’ve been in churches that said that unless you “gibbered and guttled” called “speaking in tongues,” you were not “filled with the Holy Spirit.
I’ve been in ones that the chaos of people “manifesting with demons” and others “speaking in tongues” was uncomfortable and distracting.
Most sing phrases of a song over and over and over until people go into a type of trance and start the guttural gibberish, people going to the front on their knees, crying, rhythmically dancing … it reaches a crescendo and then the “pastor” ( who might know 5 people in the congregation with no desire to actually Shepard’s the flock) brings it around to a prayer, a cherry picked Bible verse and people file out.. emotional but not edified not feeling like they e been with “brothers and sisters “ as few actually talk or care to know each other. It’s a concert and an emotional outlet, perhaps a feel good moment. They leave never cracking a Bible but looking at screens. Sad
We could talk at length about the psychology of trances, cults, and hypnotic patterns that false churches use! It's amazing how they ignore the clear teachings from 1 Corinthians
Cults, the operative word. I worked for a church that is really a cult. I watched in abject horror as people were taught, for a fee of course, to “get their prayer language” by “just saying yabadabadoo”. I only wish I had not seen and heard that. The scary thing is that rows of people seated in chairs actually parroted yabadabadoo back. I fled the vicinity. Surreal. Flintstones anyone?
That's almost unbelievable, but liars do have a way of pushing the limits to the point of outrage and absurdity when they think they're untouchable.
Sorry but can't help but wonder, after all the obviously multiple experiences you have endured in these worrying and unscriptural places so often, why you keep going back to them; any of them ?
For my part, with fifty plus years as a tongues-speaking Christian and church-goer on at least a weekly basis, I have not encountered any of the excesses you describe in your post so cannot help but be intrigued.
Did I say that I had many experiences? I'm sure we all have different histories, but like I said, I believe God showed me what I needed to see. And since the scriptures themselves debunk the whole doctrine, no amount of supposedly "good" experiences would make a difference to me. False doctrine is false doctrine.
the replies are not in sequence here- I was replying to Denise and her equally wild accusations
. No, you did not say "many" experiences and for you to have based your dialogue and diatribe on merely one is concerning to say the least...."many" would have given more credibility -possibly, although not in the Pentecostal environment of which I am part of whereby everything is done 'decently and in order" as per scripture.
Yes; false doctrine is most certainly false doctrine or nor do 'supposedly 'good' experiences ' make one whit of difference - although once again, it is important to check if 'supposedly good' experiences is valid (if it leads to a life of transformation from a harmful and negative lifestyle to one that heals and becomes productive would you class that as 'supposed' only ? -once again, as with so much of your original post you are simply assuming. Sorry, but assumption does not equate to fact . )
Asserting that 'scriptures themselves debunk the whole doctrine ' is a breath-takingly wild and inaccurate assumption to have declared when those very scriptures most definitely do not 'debunk' tongues. I was intending to quote some of them but realized it would require quoting much of 1 Corinthians 14 itself in its entirety....please read it.
A few others to ponder over in Acts 19:6.."and when Paul had laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came on them and they began to speak in tongues and to prophesy".
And you would do well if you are genuinely interested in the topic to check out 1 Corinthians 13 too and throughout the Book of Acts.
Your broadbrush of suggesting 'languages ' be substituted for 'tongues' does not hold water in many instances.
Speaking in tongues is most clearly and definitely in the Bible and I would encourage you to pray that you too may receive this precious gift or another of those listed in the Bible. The issue really ought to be with the excesses of and emphasis on , tongues, and not tongues itself
OK, you asked for it. One minor point with the Greek, a misspelling. γλῶσσα transliterates as "glōssa". The macron over the transliterated "o" (ō) differentiates between the Greek letters omega (ω) and omicron (ο). The accent (shown as circumflex over omega "ῶ") also falls on the transliterated ō, so it could be written as "glṓssa", but accents are typically omitted from transliterations, and acute over macron over "o" can be a bit difficult to make out anyway.
Oh, one other thing, not involving Greek. There was a time not that many years ago when I was attending two churches, one on Sunday mornings (mine) every week and another, intermittently in the afternoon. Both met in the same sanctuary. The former was a mainline denomination church with no particular gospel to share. The latter was an ethnic (Fijian) Pentecostal church that preached the gospel, that was instrumental in bringing me fully back into the faith. God had a hand in that, for sure.
"Speaking in tongues" was not a big thing, and I don't even know if they were doing that or just speaking in their native language. I never asked, and it only happened occasionally, not even every week. What I do know is that they liked to sing contemporary songs from earlier decades, and sometimes in Fijian, showing phonetic lyrics on the screen. This meant that I was able (already knowing the English lyrics) to sing along with them instead in their language!
Fond memories.
I wonder how many churches "seeded by" or "belonging to" Pentecostal churches basically end up distancing themselves from the practice of babbling! I'm not sure how many other ways they deviate from biblical doctrine, but perhaps it would be acceptable with just that one change.
We know that good Christians and God will work together in any country or circumstance to help people, even in cults and weird places. This is one of the reasons you can never simply judge an individual by their group associations.
I know what you mean. I have some fairly terrible former group associations, cults. The first was a church, included in "Kingdom of the Cults" at the time, that I grew up under the influence of, from about age 12. And yet weirdly, I also learned much from them that was true, involving healthy eating (before "organic" was a thing), pagan origins of some evangelical traditions, and more. And much of that I had to later unlearn.
And I did unlearn those parts, as the organization was finally breaking up when I was back with them as an adult in my 40s, investigating whether what they had been teaching was true or not. As part of that investigation I read the Bible through 7 times in 3 1/2 years. Much of what they taught indeed was not true, and I thank God for all I went through.
Thank you Terry. For those of us who are Seeking Truth in Chrisnity & still Learning ( I became a chirstian in 2009 ) this was very educational. I note that someone below has commented that it's a "Sad Essay" & I guess it might be to some. The notion that in this present day, one still needs to see the truth through deceptions, unintentional or manufactured ( which is Rife! ) . But it wasnt a sad essay to me & I can now learn it & be resolute. Thank you
I shared this article with a friend, who would like to know what Bible you use.
I grew up on the KJV and love it, but for a deeper study I generally prefer the NET translation. When doing a study that relies on word choice like this, I'll cross-reference multiple Bible translations and look up the Greek terms for clarity, since the translators themselves will admit that some translations are designed simply to be the easiest to read, others are more about being a literal word-for-word translation, and others are meant to give a thought-for-thought comparison. There is no one "correct" translation, which is why we have multiple to compare and the Interlinear to help give insight.
Thank you! Now I have one for you:
What is your position on historicism vs. other biblical hermeneutics?
Thank you for this, Terry. It is very helpful to me. Those verses make so much more sense just by substituting the word language for tongue.
I belong to an excellent Pentecost church that literally has saved my life. They are wonderful, Bible based people.
But they do tolerate the whole speaking in tongues thing, and while praying there are some people babbling.
Personally, I put this in the category of people, just praying by themselves. I think we can all have grace and let people do that who find satisfaction in it.
I’m sorry the Pentecost Church you visited was so lacking. Sadly, nonsense creeps into everything. I’m not sure what else to say about it but I do appreciate your essay. It really does help me understand the Bible and that’s why I like reading you so much.
It's interesting to me that positive reviews of Pentecostal churches are almost always "despite the babbling" and not because of it! When I attended it, they pointed me to YouTube videos of a huge national gathering where thousands of people were filling up a stadium, and the whole thing was also very creepy and non-scriptural, so I took that as a confirmation that the core identity was corrupt. However, that doesn't mean individual Christians at a low level can't help each other and be fruitful. It's like there's a poison pill mixed into what could be a great movement (although I assume they also have other problems in their doctrine.)
"like a poison pill mixed in" - exactly. My response to your main post was to be from a very differing perspective - and I write from over fifty years of Pentecostal experience - but this comment I fully agree with. God gave His Holy Spirit very publicly on the Day of Pentecost as in Acts....it was the birth of His spiritual nation to bring us, as believers from all nations, current and future, into deeper fellowship with Him and with one another., wherever we may find us in the world. However, that snake-oil salesman ....the Devil, Satan, whatever you want to call him....through man, has inserted the aforementioned poison pill into the mix and what was intended to unite has instead often become a tool of division and disunity and religious discrimination.
PS. What do you mean by "individual Christians at a low level" helping each other ??
Have you not read verses saying there is no greater love than that of someone laying down his life for a friend ? or that all men will know we are His disciples through our showing love one for another ? that the greatest of all the gifts is love ? by their fruits you shall know them ? where men dwell in unity God commands the blessing ? etc etc.
Just what does your Christian walk consist of here, Mr Wolfe ?....the Christians I know
fast for others, go and pray for them, leave their homelands and take the Gospel to unfamiliar and even hostile areas, open their homes to the needy and feed them....
I can only assume your definition of 'low level' is very different from mine.
Oh! What a misunderstanding! I meant "low level" purely in the sense of system theory, where the "lowest level" are the real workers on the ground level, doing the important things, while the "high level" is more abstract, intellectual, and typically not very helpful! In no way did I mean "low quality", but the "ground floor" so to speak.
Thank you for the clarification here.....but even with my limited vocabulary more suitable words would have sprung to mind in that case- 'grass roots' or 'coal face' for example- and would have lessened the condescending judgmental attitude that prevails throughout your post.
There is so much I would like to have expanded on and clarified in it as this is a topic close to my heart as the result of my misinformed belief system formerly regarding tongues.
Everyone I talk to uses "low level" to mean ordinary and practical, so I can't apologize for using it. I've never even heard the term "coal face" so I guess we must come from quite different backgrounds.
Regarding Pentecostal churches I felt that I was actually very lenient by focusing mostly on the false doctrine of speaking in tongues, and not the larger hoax of the "prosperity gospel" and all the evil it has brought. I suppose the disciples were also condescending and judgmental when they attacked the liars of their own day. I didn't use nearly the same level of harsh rhetoric as they did!
If "low level' means ordinary to you and your contemporaries then how do you describe something that is regarded as being of a low status or of little importance ?...these are but two of the meanings I read in the dictionary. FYI "coal face' indicates someone who is at the front of the hard work, facing it and getting involved in it....self explanatory pretty much, as is 'low life'.
The ghastly prosperity doctrine is another matter altogether and has nothing to do with the topic of tongues.
The disciples were being neither condescending nor judgmental when "attacking" the liars of their day....and the hypocrites....they had no need to be as their plainly spoken calling-out was fully justified and accurate, unlike the condescending and judgmental words of your unjustified and inaccurate attack.
I have no idea why you chose to write such a biased and ignorant post on speaking in tongues but I do know that we, as Christians, are warned in Romans 14:4 to not 'judge another man's servant" - an important aspect to keep in mind as amongst the people you rubbish will be many who are very much going about the business of serving God. And I know a number of them.
As Christians we need to guard ourselves to avoid grieving the Holy Spirit and I believe this is the risk you are taking, as with your scathing sum-up of the Azusa Street revival as one example. As a Christian writer and man of influence and someone I have deep respect for I think you may well be called to a similar standard and judgment as pastors and other church leaders and would urge you to consider this before writing on spiritual topics until researching deeply and justly.
...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(Mark 16:15-20)
Yes, the apostles (including Paul, obviously) did travel the world and speak new languages to the locals. And they were edified by understanding the actual words being spoken!
Do we know that Paul or the others previously at Pentecost spoke exactly those languages - or did they hear themselves speaking languages they didn't learn or understand that then became the (translated) languages in the ears of those receiving them be they Greek or Arabic visitors?
Could it be that the Holy Spirit translated the language in the ears of those receiving the message of the Gospel?
Recommend checking out Sean Feucht during the c19 debacle - certainly don't agree with him on what's going on in mid east since 2023 but he was on the right side of history with the plandemic.
Yes he's a "modern" worship leader who's been to Iran, Iraq, North Korea etc. Yes he's lead meetings at the much maligned Bethel church.
Anyone that gets attacked by Antifa in Portland and lockdown church enthusiasts on MSM is still worth a listen.
https://youtu.be/AxEOLoJ0x60?
Have just watched your recommended link.....remarkable and very moving..and such a reminder of those dark days - which will intensify further as the days progress. Thank you very much for sharing and reminding us of those horrors.
Terry love much if your work.
We worship the LORD in Spirit and in Truth.
Neither of those is opposed to the other.
Yes there are charlatans in both the Christian academic and so called ministry worlds. There are also realms we only see dimly as if trying to a ascertain appearance through an old mirror.
There are times when English words do not express enough. Even the rocks cry out. Even donkeys can speak to prophets.
The miraculous us real where the rubber hits the road but the enemy doesn't want us to become people that seek and do the will of the heavenly Father. So he uses counterfeits like the 1980s TV evangelist or the "seeker friendly" services of the 1990s-2020s.
Recommend spending time in Africa - witchcraft is a weekly if not daily event in many lives. Just because the counterfeit is deeply suspect does not mean the real deal (God's) is fake.
There are times we don't know how to pray - it's never about "show" it's about human inadequacy in the face of the hardest situations. Without God there is no solution for the advanced cancer patient or broken marriage.
Speaking in other languages that one hasn't learned was pretty regular long before the 20th century and apparent revivals of Asuza street.
Pentecost was as real an event as the resurrection & ascension of Christ. It turned cowards into martyrs and changed the world.
Dispensationalism is part of the attack on faith - we need the mind of Christ as well as His heart and a willingness to be His vessel to reach the lost.
Ignore the click bait YT title:
https://youtu.be/YiWW-q_kpOI?
I don't know what point you're making, but I agree that God gives people gifts and that spiritual warfare is always happening. The key priority of the BIBLE (which all true Christians should obey) is to be COHERENT and EDIFYING, right? If somebody isn't doing that, they are opposing biblical truth.
So if we don't know exactly what to pray we shouldn't? Even the rocks and stones will cry out if we don't. The earth groans and waits for the revelation of the King of kings.
I for one don't claim to be eloquent in my prayers - vast majority of times so called tongues are used personally not in ear shot of others. If it is public then there must always be a translation for the edification of the gathering.
Has several experiences where praying in both English and tongues had remarkably positive effects - particularly in foreign countries where I didn't know the language.
What is incoherent to man's ears isn't to God's. He deals with millions of petitions a day. The time and place are very important be that public prayer or sermon.
“In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”
Hebrews 1:1-2 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/heb.1.1-2.NIV
The apostles spoke in tongues but it is no longer needed because we have the whole Word of God and so no longer needed. (Acts 2). I would be careful though to say also that if someone does “speak” this way that God can’t use them. We don’t know God’s thoughts and ways. In 1 Corinthians 12, speaking this way was slammed if the speaker didn’t explain or someone else was able to interpret it so that it could be beneficial.
The apostles spoke languages in order to help foreign people. Paul says that he spoke more tongues than any of them, because he was multilingual and traveled the world helping people all over. And that can still be needed. If you read the entire article you'll see that I go over those verses about needing a translator.
Not at all. He said he speaks IN tongues more than any of them, and he thanked God for it...but that tongues wasn't central to what he was saying..... that We are like a clanging gong if we aren't exhibiting love.
He also says 'to forbid not speaking in tongues' ....which is very likely due to forms of tongues being found within all sorts of groups which were of a negative nature whereas these tongues were indeed of God.
If by "whole word of God " you mean "when that which is perfect is come"...(tongues will pass away). -that which is prefect is Jesus Himself and in the flesh, not His written Word. Until then, nothing is different here.
I still don’t understand why tongues or whatever it actually is , is even a biblical thing..honestly one of those paradoxical mysteries that seemed better to just forget for the time being
Re: modern miracles in our civilization:
My Christianity is probably not your cup of tea, ie traditional catholicism, but I have seen and experienced miracles a lot, and know many others who have too. As far as I can tell they fall into two general categories: the more impressive/flashier kind is where the natural laws of the world are turned off to accomplish something, for the salvation of souls or for those who are already very faithful and willing to accept whatever God gives (most recently my friend’s daughter was cured of terminal cancer after being flown back home to die and they had given up treatment, when our bishop gave her a relic of a Saint and she and her family prayed for her to get better and touched it to her, and then she was cured), and the other is those with a devotion to Mary having their greater and lesser needs met constantly and improbably. Like if you were playing a video game where you had some “luck” mechanic, which turned on ridiculously in your favor to provide your needs and humble wants provided that you abandoned your will to God’s, and also were happy to embrace suffering and offer it up to God for the conversion and salvation of souls and in reparation for your own and others’ sins in union with Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. When I say constantly and improbably I mean the kind if thing like: “widow’s hot water heater breaks and she doesnt have the money to replace it. Prays about it and the next day someone knocks on her door, asks for a cup of water and then randomly asks if she wants the extra hot water heater he has in the back of his pickup because of some weird and improbable reason, and then installs it for her.” My wife and I prayed a novena to St Joseph to find a place to live after we got married and the housing market had gone insane and we couldnt find anything remotely livable and affordable. Once we finished the novena we got approached with an offmarket lowball offer on a 7 bedroom house in a convenient location. It is 1900 sf on a modest lot and suits our needs. We have been blessed with four children since we moved in in late 2020, so I am glad of the bedrooms despite the architectural travesty that it would be for anyone who wasn’t going to need a modest house for a zillion kids in the modern age.
Also, for more information on the different spiritual gifts, check out Cornelius a Lapide. His exposition of them is pretty exhaustive and in depth, insofar as anything written by man can be exhaustive or in depth when it comes to spiritual things. I have the gift of tears, as does my sister, which is one of the weirder ones I guess, though it has borne a lot of fruit. My cousin, God rest his soul, had the gift of healing. I sometimes dream dreams of scenes in the future that come to pass exactly as I dream them, but with one exception they dont seem to be especially useful at all, just like I am viewing random snippets (singly, per dream) in my own life in the future with little rhyme or reason that I can discern (?). Their frequency also seems random. I am curious if you or anyone else has any insight into this.
Thank you for your efforts. I didn't have time to read this today but will, especially as I was one who posed this question.
Blessings!
One more Question: which present day Bible Translation is the most reliable please?
Remember out of the mouth can come Truth as well as lies - same with memes and imagery
A very sad essay. I will say no more.
I know, it's sad to always have to debunk this dangerous deception.