I’m happy to respond to questions from my readers. Before you continue, if you haven’t read the preceding post, please check it out:
Question: Who survives?
The first question is about Christians surviving until Jesus returns:
Where does the Bible say every single Christian will have died before Christ returns? Surely 1 Thess. 4:15-17 alone is compelling evidence that you are wrong here?
There will be Christians alive when Jesus comes, but they will be recent converts, not Gentile Church believers who somehow survive all the devastation. As I said, the Gentile Church will be wiped out, and then the 144,000 Israelites will become the focal point of the final prophecies; they are the ones who will be “alive and remain” at the time of Christ’s return. They are also the ones transformed in the twinkling of an eye, at the “last trumpet” (the trumpet is another way of hyperlinking these events):
(1 Cor 15:52) in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we [ie. the 144,000 Israelite survivors] will be changed [as they are taken up to meet Jesus in the air].
There could be a short period where no Christians are alive on earth, between the death of the Church and the conversion of the Israelites. Or perhaps the last Gentile Christian survivors will overlap with the 144,000 turning to Christ. But either way, by the time Jesus actually comes back to save those 144,000, it’s not plausible that Gentile Christians survive.
As events get worse down here, the population in Heaven multiplies by millions (see Rev. 7). The angels who witness this growth in their company tell the author of Revelation that they came out of “great tribulation”. But this arrival can’t be caused by the Rapture, because at that time, Jesus will not be descending from Heaven, and the First Resurrection hasn’t happened, either. Therefore, these martyrs have died from harsh conditions, by the millions, back on earth.
Sealed servants of God
Most people underestimate how important the 144,000 are. They are called the “servants of God” during this dark future. They are protected spiritually and physically, because they are very special to God:
(Rev. 7:3-4) “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel…
(Rev. 9:4) They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads [the 144,000].
(Rev. 14:1) Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Clearly they are the most precious remnant of believers at this time. If there are other groups of Christians, we are not told about them, and they presumably do not get the same treatment. Rather than assuming that there are believers out there somewhere, suffering without the same special treatment, it makes more sense that God allows Satan to wipe out the believers so that He can focus on this final group of saints without worrying about collateral damage as He destroys the world.
The parable of the harvest
The preparation for the Lord’s return is about avoiding collateral damage:
(Matthew 13:29-30) ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the Harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”
The “Harvest” begins with sorting and separating. God doesn’t want to pour out His wrath on the world until the Christians are safely out of the way. But Pre-Tribulation Rapture people can’t accept that God will remove Christians from harm’s way by allowing them to die as martyrs. They can’t mentally conceive of a martyr’s death as a blessing, and accuse God of hating and pouring out His wrath on the saints every time they suffer for His name. This is a dangerous inversion of New Testament logic.
Question: Room for converts?
Now let’s address another comment. This question has multiple parts, which touch on the Marriage Supper, the Restrainer, the perseverance of families, and the possibility of new converts in the last days.
Very well written, thank you. It still begs the question about the marriage supper, timing and there is then no room for people to become born again after ‘the church’ is killed in the last days?
Since you brought up the Marriage Supper, let’s begin by pointing out that it’s hyperlinked with the Matt 24 discourse on the return of Jesus:
(Matthew 24:31) And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other end of it.
This is the same as the gathering of the “birds” for the Marriage Supper battle:
(Revelation 19:9 + 17-18) And he said to me, "Write: Blessed are those who are invited to the banquet of the marriage supper of the Lamb!" … And I saw one angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come! Assemble for the great banquet of God, in order that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of military tribunes, and the flesh of the powerful, and the flesh of horses and those seated on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slave, and small and great!"
Yes, this is just the Rapture from another perspective. Jesus returns with the resurrected Christians, assembles the 144,000 Israelites, and destroys Satan’s armies. This is more properly called the Day of the Lord.1
Angels preach
Would angels need to preach the Gospel to the nations if there was a significant Christian population in the world?
(Revelation 14:6-7) Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. And he said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters.”
Picture it, if you can. Wasn’t it the job of Christians to spread the Gospel? What happened to them?
Let’s assume that this angelic Gospel creates converts. Perhaps thousands of people will turn to God! If they do, it is almost certain that they accept the consequence, which is to forfeit their lives. They will be quickly martyred. Why? Because those who reject this gospel which is given to them by an actual angel(!) are so demon-possessed that they will immediately kill them rather than obeying God’s warning. This will be a time of brutal anti-Christian insanity.
Period of despair?
The comment continues:
Death will come quickly to the church globally when the anti-Christ is removed and they will escape Gods wrath and outpouring as they won’t be there?
Based on my aligning of scripture, the Gentile Church will be killed years before the Man of Sin (ie. Antichrist) is revealed. Just for the sake of imagining a scenario, let’s say all true believers today are wiped by the year 2028 through various troubles; I would expect that the Man of Sin wouldn’t be revealed until 2030 in that case. In those two years, a false version of Christianity may rise up to replace us, and Israel would become the focal point of the world’s attention. (Hint: Jerusalem will be complicit in our deaths.) The world will have a very different narrative about what’s going on than what’s described by the Bible, of course. They may even claim that Christians are tolerated and promote their version of the “Church”, or have their own “Messiah” who is acceptable to them.
I do however struggle to understand how entire Christian families with their young children will be able to stand strong in this. It has happened for 100’s of years but seems to me this will be done on a massive, global scale never seen before.
This point is important, but let’s never forget what God does in times of crisis. Think about the parting of the Red Sea, or the flames that came from heaven to destroy the soldiers who came for Elijah. God will perform equivalent miracles for the spiritual protection of the believers, even though their bodies will be sacrificed. The Holy Spirit provides strength like you can’t imagine. And never underestimate children. In fact, children are much more courageous than adults unless they are reacting to their parents being weak and fearful. If you stand firmly and tell them the truth about how bad things will get, they will be the ones standing up when the danger comes. They will become a source of strength for you! God uses children to inspire adults who lack faith in the God of the Universe.
Man of Sin revealed
My other question is first the restrainer will be removed (generally understood to be the Holy Spirit) before the anti christ is revealed. Is the restrainer then perhaps the spirit filled body of the church that is removed?
The phrasing in 2 Thess. 2:1-12 indicates that God is certainly involved, but that whatever restrains the Man of Sin is something which can be “removed”. So it can’t be God Himself. If the believing Christians are dead, and the 144,000 Israelites are converted by being marked in their foreheads and witnessing miracles (that is to say, not by hearing the Gospel and trusting the Word, like we must) then perhaps the Holy Spirit is removed at that very late stage. I don’t have a strong opinion on this mystery, as long as the sequence of events is respected.
This passage describes the showdown between the Man of Sin and Jesus:
(2 Thess 2:1-12) Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it [ie. the Day of the Lord] will not come until the Rebellion occurs, and the Man of Lawlessness [ie. Man of Sin]—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it [the mystery of lawlessness] will continue until he [the one who restrains] is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival [at the Rapture-Resurrection-Marriage Supper-Millennial Kingdom event].
The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion so that they believe the lie, in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
So we see that the 144,000 will be subjected to the most satanic period ever, but they will be miraculously protected by God. If the Holy Spirit is removed globally, this would prevent any new converts from happening. If something else is restraining, like a certain angel, then new converts could happen and result in martyrdom.
Is it really the Day of the Lord?
This answers another question I received:
Terry, I really appreciate your writing and your thoughts, and I agree with you very frequently. One sticking point for me is claiming that the Thessalonians passage is clearly the day of the Lord. The Bible is pretty good about saying the day of the Lord, when it means the day of the Lord, and the actual phrase, the day of the Lord, is not in the Thessalonians passage. So I think your proposition is not proved. I am open to your response.
Ah, so you looked at one Thessalonian epistle, but not the other! Well, I hope you can see that “the Day of the Lord” is specifically mentioned in 2 Thessalonians in connection with this prophetic convergence of events.
Question: The days of Noah?
In regard to the possibility of survivors, our first questioner adds the following:
See also Matt. 24:36-51 for even clearer evidence.
This passage talks about how it will be like the days of Noah before the flood when Jesus is about to come back. People like to stretch this to mean all sorts of things, but I think we often miss the most basic point of all: that the people in the days of Noah had many reasons to suspect they would be punished, but were still treating it as if it were normal because they thought God would never punish them.
In the same way, people will be so deluded and satanically confused that they don’t realize what God is about to do, even when the warning sings are everywhere. This passage is not about Christians having a happy life, or events being totally normal! The days of Noah were insane, corrupt, and extreme, but the people were foolish. That’s why it will be similar to the approach of the Day of the Lord—because those people will have many warnings too, but they will imagine themselves safe. Why? I go into greater depth into the end time psychology in my book.
And please, feel free to ask more questions! I love to have a dialogue with believers about these important topics while we still can.
I wonder how we “feast” during this “Marriage Supper”. Do we participate in their destruction, or simply mop up the debris and carnage? Whatever our role is, it would make the most sense for us to enjoy this event if it was a form of revenge on the evildoers who killed us.
Hi Terry. I greatly appreciate you answering my question. I think you are right in your answer 2 Thessalonians is clearly about the day of the Lord. And furthermore, the day of the Lord is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians in 5:2!
5:2 reads: “ for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” That is fascinating, because the rapture crowd teaches that the day of the Lord is seven years after the rapture. They teach that the rapture is the event that comes like a thief in the night, and then claim that we know the Lord is coming seven years later. This notion seems to be contradicted by 5:2.
So I’m still studying and evaluating all of this.
I’m reading your book, God’s Fault. Very helpful, thank you!
It's hard for me to know what to do with such questions. I was raised "cultist" rather than dispensationalist, and was only introduced to dispensational pre-millennialism in something like 2018 (through a women's Bible study). The pre-millennialism part resembled what I had learned from the cult, but I didn't understand the "dispensational" part at the time. I returned to it in 2020. I had known something about psyops for 20 years, and I took a much greater interest in Bible prophecy during 2020, something my childhood cult had emphasized heavily.
I had a lot of trouble with a teaching that there was an "extra" resurrection that somehow precedes the "first" resurrection. Something about the math just didn't work. I allowed myself to be influenced by it, however, because I was encountering ministries online that, while promoting the rapture, were also warning people about the psyop in progress and doing a fairly decent job of it, something my home church at the time wouldn't think of doing, labeling people (like me) who did so "conspiracy theorists". What these other ministries seemed to lack in eschatological understanding, they made up for in "do not forsake assembling together", not that any of them were close enough to me, geographically, to make that possible.
The rapture issue came to a head for me this year, with one of the leaders of this pack beginning to use 2 Timothy 4:3-4 as a club against those that disagree with the rapture teaching, quoting the NKJV (out of context) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Wait a minute. I'm failing to "endure" because I question and examine teachings that would seem to contradict scripture? Huh? Being a Berean now is somehow bad?
The great irony here, of course, is that this passage could potentially be seen as applying to the pastor using it against those of us that examine his teaching, and that of those he hangs out with. I won't go quite so far as to accuse them -- but I did decide to withdraw from their groupthink, and from sending them any money. You just don't make accusations of the kind they are making in the face of having their "sound doctrine" ("healthy teaching" is a better translation) rightly questioned. They appear to have set a trap for themselves and fallen in. That is very unfortunate. Good teachers are very much needed.
So what about these questions we are discussing here? To a large degree I have to say I don't know, yet. I am having to go back and review and examine things I have noticed over the years, seeing where that leads in my own studies. I take into account what you and others write, and I bring in what I can learn from cross-referenced original-language commentaries that dig into the actual text of the Bible in a respectful way. There are different ways to understand things, and I don't shy away from that.
I am reluctant to conclude just yet that the faithful church is "killed off" in the tribulation. That some will still be (it's ongoing) is supported. Given what is happening now in the western church, I'm not sure there will be that many left anyway -- those not literally being killed off now are abandoning their witness (the primary meaning of "martyr" in the NT) instead. Words for "martyr" do not appear in Rev. 7. I haven't studied this extensively, but the root looks like it may have shifted emphasis around the 2nd century or so. The verb μαρτυρέω (martyreō) appears in Rev. 1:2 in reference to John's witness, and in many forms in many places elsewhere. It can refer to martyrdom as we understand it now, I believe, but it doesn't usually and I can't off the top of my head think of where it does.
But keep exploring this. The last thing we need is to all try to "think the same". Unity does not result from our own efforts at it.