Hi Terry. I greatly appreciate you answering my question. I think you are right in your answer 2 Thessalonians is clearly about the day of the Lord. And furthermore, the day of the Lord is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians in 5:2!
5:2 reads: “ for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” That is fascinating, because the rapture crowd teaches that the day of the Lord is seven years after the rapture. They teach that the rapture is the event that comes like a thief in the night, and then claim that we know the Lord is coming seven years later. This notion seems to be contradicted by 5:2.
So I’m still studying and evaluating all of this.
I’m reading your book, God’s Fault. Very helpful, thank you!
It's hard for me to know what to do with such questions. I was raised "cultist" rather than dispensationalist, and was only introduced to dispensational pre-millennialism in something like 2018 (through a women's Bible study). The pre-millennialism part resembled what I had learned from the cult, but I didn't understand the "dispensational" part at the time. I returned to it in 2020. I had known something about psyops for 20 years, and I took a much greater interest in Bible prophecy during 2020, something my childhood cult had emphasized heavily.
I had a lot of trouble with a teaching that there was an "extra" resurrection that somehow precedes the "first" resurrection. Something about the math just didn't work. I allowed myself to be influenced by it, however, because I was encountering ministries online that, while promoting the rapture, were also warning people about the psyop in progress and doing a fairly decent job of it, something my home church at the time wouldn't think of doing, labeling people (like me) who did so "conspiracy theorists". What these other ministries seemed to lack in eschatological understanding, they made up for in "do not forsake assembling together", not that any of them were close enough to me, geographically, to make that possible.
The rapture issue came to a head for me this year, with one of the leaders of this pack beginning to use 2 Timothy 4:3-4 as a club against those that disagree with the rapture teaching, quoting the NKJV (out of context) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Wait a minute. I'm failing to "endure" because I question and examine teachings that would seem to contradict scripture? Huh? Being a Berean now is somehow bad?
The great irony here, of course, is that this passage could potentially be seen as applying to the pastor using it against those of us that examine his teaching, and that of those he hangs out with. I won't go quite so far as to accuse them -- but I did decide to withdraw from their groupthink, and from sending them any money. You just don't make accusations of the kind they are making in the face of having their "sound doctrine" ("healthy teaching" is a better translation) rightly questioned. They appear to have set a trap for themselves and fallen in. That is very unfortunate. Good teachers are very much needed.
So what about these questions we are discussing here? To a large degree I have to say I don't know, yet. I am having to go back and review and examine things I have noticed over the years, seeing where that leads in my own studies. I take into account what you and others write, and I bring in what I can learn from cross-referenced original-language commentaries that dig into the actual text of the Bible in a respectful way. There are different ways to understand things, and I don't shy away from that.
I am reluctant to conclude just yet that the faithful church is "killed off" in the tribulation. That some will still be (it's ongoing) is supported. Given what is happening now in the western church, I'm not sure there will be that many left anyway -- those not literally being killed off now are abandoning their witness (the primary meaning of "martyr" in the NT) instead. Words for "martyr" do not appear in Rev. 7. I haven't studied this extensively, but the root looks like it may have shifted emphasis around the 2nd century or so. The verb μαρτυρέω (martyreō) appears in Rev. 1:2 in reference to John's witness, and in many forms in many places elsewhere. It can refer to martyrdom as we understand it now, I believe, but it doesn't usually and I can't off the top of my head think of where it does.
But keep exploring this. The last thing we need is to all try to "think the same". Unity does not result from our own efforts at it.
Interesting. I hadn't heard about the term martyr being wider. There is room for interpretation on many points, but I think the Day of the Lord hyperlinks get us to a pretty narrow set of events.
I like to use the Mounce Greek Dictionary to look up references to specific NT words. For words beginning with μαρτυρ-- ( martyr--), it lists the four lexical forms below, and one more that lacks the "ρ" (rho). That 5th one, μάρτυς (martys), is the only one to mention "martyr" (English).
Note that the Greek letter υ (upsilon) is, in this context, transliterated "y". "ü" would make more sense to me, but that's what is done.
On the first line of each listing, the "S" number is the Strongs number for that form, and the nnx number is the number of occurrences represented by that lexical form. I've omitted the GK numbers due to their limited use.
S G3140 μαρτυρέω martyreō 76x
trans. to testify, depose, Jn. 3:11, 32; 1 Jn. 1:2; Rev. 1:2; 22:20; absol. to give evidence, Jn. 18:23; to bear testimony, testify, Lk. 4:22; Jn. 1:7, 8; to bear testimony in confirmation, Acts 14:3; to declare distinctly and formally, Jn. 4:44; pass. to be the subject of testimony, to obtain attestation to character, Acts 6:3; 10:22; 1 Tim. 5:10; Heb. 11:2, 4; mid. equivalent to μαρτύρομαι, to make a solemn appeal, Acts 26:22; 1 Thess. 2:12 → confirm; testify; witness.
S G3141 μαρτυρία martyria 37x
judicial evidence, Mk. 14:55, 56, 59; Lk. 22:71; testimony in general, Tit. 1:13; 1 Jn. 5:9 testimony, declaration in a matter of fact or doctrine, Jn. 1:19; 3:11; Acts 22:18; attestation to character, Jn. 5:34, 36; reputation, 1 Tim. 3:7 → testimony; witness.
S G3142 μαρτύριον martyrion 19x
testimony, evidence, Acts 4:33; 2 Cor. 1:12; Jas. 5:3; in NT testimony, mode of solemn declaration, Mt. 8:4; Lk. 9:5; testimony, matter of solemn declaration, 1 Cor. 1:6; 2:1; 1 Tim. 2:6; σκηνὴ τοῦ μαρτυρίου, a title of the Mosaic tabernacle, Acts 7:44; Rev. 15:5 → testimony; witness.
S G3143 μαρτύρομαι martyromai 5x
to call to witness; intrans. to make a solemn affirmation or declaration, Acts 20:26; 26:22; Gal. 5:3; to make a solemn appeal, Eph. 4:17; 1 Thess. 2:12*
And the fifth one:
S G3144 μάρτυς martys 35x
(1) a judicial witness, deponent, Mt. 18:16; Heb. 10:28; (2) generally, a witness to a circumstance, Lk. 24:48; Acts 10:41; in NT a witness, a testifier, of a doctrine, Rev. 1:5; 3:14; 11:3; (3) a martyr, Acts 22:20; Rev. 2:13 → witness.
Acts 22:20 is…
NASB 2020: ‘And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing nearby and approving, and watching over the cloaks of those who were killing him.’
NIV: 'And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’
Note that even when referring to an actual "martyr" (English), the word can correctly be translated "witness". (That must have made for interesting conversation within the translation committee.) I could dig deeper, using a root search on the Greek text, but the pattern of usage is fairly apparent.
In Rev. 2:13, even the NIV translates μάρτυς as "witness":
"I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives."
"Was put to death" is the aorist passive indicative ἀπεκτάνθη (apektanthē), glossed as "to kill" in my tags for the lexical form μάρτυς. The implication here seems to me to be that a "martyr" (English) is someone put to death for their witness -- "martys" (Greek). Sounds right.
I believe I could also search for "martyr" in my English translations and see what that turns up, but I have prep work yet to do for tomorrow's service (I'm running screens) and I'd best move on to that now.
Um, you write, "If there are other groups of Christians, we are not told about them"- but the Lord did indeed tell us about them. See Matt. 24:36-51. (Surely 1 Thess 5:1-4 is to be borne in mind here too?)
P.S. *All* saints who have ever made it to heaven have gone through "great tribulation". The reference to "millions" of souls is about all the saints in history, not just those who went through THE Tribulation.
That section of Matt 24 doesn't mention anything about believers. Rapture enthusiasts project it into their doctrine by assuming these people get taken up to heaven, but that's not in the text. On the contrary, they are compared to those NOT in the boat when the Flood came! If anything, it implies that they get killed by God's judgments.
I don't see how you can minimize the suffering of martyrs by saying everyone suffers tribulation. I would argue that I haven't experienced tribulation, my life has been very cozy. Billions of believers have gone their whole lives without even having to worry about persecution.
"That section of Matt 24 doesn't mention anything about believers." Well, verses 44 & 45 talk about 'servants of the Lord', so...
"On the contrary, they are compared to those NOT in the boat when the Flood came!" It depends whether one ignores verse 31 or not! The word "Taken" in the context of v31 refers to the *Rapture* (also alluded to in v28).
"I don't see how you can minimize the suffering of martyrs by saying everyone suffers tribulation. I would argue that I haven't experienced tribulation, my life has been very cozy."
That may be because you are either a baby Christian, or not one at all. The Bible clearly states:
"...we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." [Act 14:22b KJV] See also John 7:7, 15:20 and 16:33.
Btw I can't see how a true Christian, writing to other *Christians*, would strip their Lord, master, redeemer and king of every single title on as many occasions as you do.
"That may be because you are either a baby Christian, or not one at all."
I won't defend myself against your accusation. But I suspect you haven't read your history of the martyrs, if you think that any persecution going on today in North America is comparable to what our spiritual forefathers had to endure. Judging every Christian who's ever lived as being invalid if they didn't get persecuted is something the Holy Spirit will have to persuade you about, if you have him.
And please do tell me what titles I have "stripped" Jesus of exactly.
You point to verses 44 + 45 of Matt 24 because it mentions "servants", and yet it clearly says that some will be disobedient, and will be cut into pieces and condemned by the Lord... So... Those people are going to be Raptured? As I said, there will most likely be a counterfeit version of Christianity in the last days, with many "servants" who have totally lost sight of the Bible's teachings. There will be many fake Christians when Jesus returns, but the 144,000 elect will be doing the true service of God.
I'm not sure if you're trying to defend Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or just finding wiggle room on less important details. You do bring up valid points, but they aren't affecting the much larger points I've established, which can't be ignored. Judging by your focus, it seems to me that you think there will be a significant number of Christians still alive when Jesus comes back.
There is no indication that the millions of Christians who are in the heavenly throne room are from throughout history, for example. The author suddenly notices their arrival, whereas before he did notice them before or feel the need to comment. In fact, he described the scene earlier and there were fewer people. Rev. 6:9-11 (the fith seal) tells us that the people are being killed, and that those in heaven will have to wait a "little while longer" for the rest to die -- and the angel specifically tells the author that they all came from great tribulation. Is a little while longer thousands of years? I suppose that's why you want to stretch the meaning of the word tribulation to include every Christian ever?
It seems you have a particular stance on this that you won't budge from, but I appreciate the dialogue. God bless you.
P.P.S. For a supposedly truth-loving Christian, you seem to have a real penchant for erecting straw men :o( For instance:
"Judging every Christian who's ever lived as being invalid if they didn't get persecuted is something the Holy Spirit will have to persuade you about, if you have him."
Where does the Bible EVER say "tribulation" can only comprise "persecution"?
"I suspect you haven't read your history of the martyrs, if you think that any persecution going on today in North America is comparable to what our spiritual forefathers had to endure."
I never said they were comparable. The two situations are so different, and for so many reasons, that it would be like comparing apples and dirt.
Sincere thanks for this. I am open to correction and will check my stance on the issue of those who "came from" great tribulation as you put it. (I'm most certainly *not* a pre-tribber btw.)
In the meantime, here are just *some* of my worries about you:
1) You frequently just refer to "Jesus" - without attaching ANY title (such as "Lord" or "Christ"). This almost NEVER happens in the Epistles.
2) In your last article, you took the name of the Lord in vain ("My G**").
3) In your reply to me regarding Matt 24:44-45, you set up a straw man. My point was that believers were in view in the passage. I did not claim .all. of them would ultimately be Raptured.
P.S. You say that "BILLIONS of believers have gone their whole lives without even having to worry about persecution" [Emphasis mine]. I'm really sorry, but this is laughable - and terrifying:
"Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it." [Mat 7:14 KJV, caps mine] See also Matt 20:16 & 22:14.
Romans, and Hebrews, we find plenty of discussion about a dichotomy between the Gentiles and Jews as believers. We find terms like "the fullness of the Gentiles" needing to happen before the conversion of the Jews, which will trigger eternal life for mankind, etc. Yes you can point to him saying "there is now no Jew or Gentile" but he also says there is no male or female, and clearly Paul himself writes about clear distinctions between those two in the church.
There is one Church essentially, but to help people understand the dichotomy and shift in prophecy I think it's useful to point out that we have promises about a Christian Israel that are yet to be fulfilled.
I don't feel comfortable injecting a different meaning into the 144,000. There's no evidence that it represents the 12 apostles, they are clearly called Israelites and each tribe is listed. This is an end time Prophecy, not simply food for thought or a general comment on the redemption of diverse people.
Hi Terry. I greatly appreciate you answering my question. I think you are right in your answer 2 Thessalonians is clearly about the day of the Lord. And furthermore, the day of the Lord is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians in 5:2!
5:2 reads: “ for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” That is fascinating, because the rapture crowd teaches that the day of the Lord is seven years after the rapture. They teach that the rapture is the event that comes like a thief in the night, and then claim that we know the Lord is coming seven years later. This notion seems to be contradicted by 5:2.
So I’m still studying and evaluating all of this.
I’m reading your book, God’s Fault. Very helpful, thank you!
It's hard for me to know what to do with such questions. I was raised "cultist" rather than dispensationalist, and was only introduced to dispensational pre-millennialism in something like 2018 (through a women's Bible study). The pre-millennialism part resembled what I had learned from the cult, but I didn't understand the "dispensational" part at the time. I returned to it in 2020. I had known something about psyops for 20 years, and I took a much greater interest in Bible prophecy during 2020, something my childhood cult had emphasized heavily.
I had a lot of trouble with a teaching that there was an "extra" resurrection that somehow precedes the "first" resurrection. Something about the math just didn't work. I allowed myself to be influenced by it, however, because I was encountering ministries online that, while promoting the rapture, were also warning people about the psyop in progress and doing a fairly decent job of it, something my home church at the time wouldn't think of doing, labeling people (like me) who did so "conspiracy theorists". What these other ministries seemed to lack in eschatological understanding, they made up for in "do not forsake assembling together", not that any of them were close enough to me, geographically, to make that possible.
The rapture issue came to a head for me this year, with one of the leaders of this pack beginning to use 2 Timothy 4:3-4 as a club against those that disagree with the rapture teaching, quoting the NKJV (out of context) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Wait a minute. I'm failing to "endure" because I question and examine teachings that would seem to contradict scripture? Huh? Being a Berean now is somehow bad?
The great irony here, of course, is that this passage could potentially be seen as applying to the pastor using it against those of us that examine his teaching, and that of those he hangs out with. I won't go quite so far as to accuse them -- but I did decide to withdraw from their groupthink, and from sending them any money. You just don't make accusations of the kind they are making in the face of having their "sound doctrine" ("healthy teaching" is a better translation) rightly questioned. They appear to have set a trap for themselves and fallen in. That is very unfortunate. Good teachers are very much needed.
So what about these questions we are discussing here? To a large degree I have to say I don't know, yet. I am having to go back and review and examine things I have noticed over the years, seeing where that leads in my own studies. I take into account what you and others write, and I bring in what I can learn from cross-referenced original-language commentaries that dig into the actual text of the Bible in a respectful way. There are different ways to understand things, and I don't shy away from that.
I am reluctant to conclude just yet that the faithful church is "killed off" in the tribulation. That some will still be (it's ongoing) is supported. Given what is happening now in the western church, I'm not sure there will be that many left anyway -- those not literally being killed off now are abandoning their witness (the primary meaning of "martyr" in the NT) instead. Words for "martyr" do not appear in Rev. 7. I haven't studied this extensively, but the root looks like it may have shifted emphasis around the 2nd century or so. The verb μαρτυρέω (martyreō) appears in Rev. 1:2 in reference to John's witness, and in many forms in many places elsewhere. It can refer to martyrdom as we understand it now, I believe, but it doesn't usually and I can't off the top of my head think of where it does.
But keep exploring this. The last thing we need is to all try to "think the same". Unity does not result from our own efforts at it.
Interesting. I hadn't heard about the term martyr being wider. There is room for interpretation on many points, but I think the Day of the Lord hyperlinks get us to a pretty narrow set of events.
I like to use the Mounce Greek Dictionary to look up references to specific NT words. For words beginning with μαρτυρ-- ( martyr--), it lists the four lexical forms below, and one more that lacks the "ρ" (rho). That 5th one, μάρτυς (martys), is the only one to mention "martyr" (English).
Note that the Greek letter υ (upsilon) is, in this context, transliterated "y". "ü" would make more sense to me, but that's what is done.
On the first line of each listing, the "S" number is the Strongs number for that form, and the nnx number is the number of occurrences represented by that lexical form. I've omitted the GK numbers due to their limited use.
S G3140 μαρτυρέω martyreō 76x
trans. to testify, depose, Jn. 3:11, 32; 1 Jn. 1:2; Rev. 1:2; 22:20; absol. to give evidence, Jn. 18:23; to bear testimony, testify, Lk. 4:22; Jn. 1:7, 8; to bear testimony in confirmation, Acts 14:3; to declare distinctly and formally, Jn. 4:44; pass. to be the subject of testimony, to obtain attestation to character, Acts 6:3; 10:22; 1 Tim. 5:10; Heb. 11:2, 4; mid. equivalent to μαρτύρομαι, to make a solemn appeal, Acts 26:22; 1 Thess. 2:12 → confirm; testify; witness.
S G3141 μαρτυρία martyria 37x
judicial evidence, Mk. 14:55, 56, 59; Lk. 22:71; testimony in general, Tit. 1:13; 1 Jn. 5:9 testimony, declaration in a matter of fact or doctrine, Jn. 1:19; 3:11; Acts 22:18; attestation to character, Jn. 5:34, 36; reputation, 1 Tim. 3:7 → testimony; witness.
S G3142 μαρτύριον martyrion 19x
testimony, evidence, Acts 4:33; 2 Cor. 1:12; Jas. 5:3; in NT testimony, mode of solemn declaration, Mt. 8:4; Lk. 9:5; testimony, matter of solemn declaration, 1 Cor. 1:6; 2:1; 1 Tim. 2:6; σκηνὴ τοῦ μαρτυρίου, a title of the Mosaic tabernacle, Acts 7:44; Rev. 15:5 → testimony; witness.
S G3143 μαρτύρομαι martyromai 5x
to call to witness; intrans. to make a solemn affirmation or declaration, Acts 20:26; 26:22; Gal. 5:3; to make a solemn appeal, Eph. 4:17; 1 Thess. 2:12*
And the fifth one:
S G3144 μάρτυς martys 35x
(1) a judicial witness, deponent, Mt. 18:16; Heb. 10:28; (2) generally, a witness to a circumstance, Lk. 24:48; Acts 10:41; in NT a witness, a testifier, of a doctrine, Rev. 1:5; 3:14; 11:3; (3) a martyr, Acts 22:20; Rev. 2:13 → witness.
Acts 22:20 is…
NASB 2020: ‘And when the blood of Your witness Stephen was being shed, I also was standing nearby and approving, and watching over the cloaks of those who were killing him.’
NIV: 'And when the blood of your martyr Stephen was shed, I stood there giving my approval and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’
Note that even when referring to an actual "martyr" (English), the word can correctly be translated "witness". (That must have made for interesting conversation within the translation committee.) I could dig deeper, using a root search on the Greek text, but the pattern of usage is fairly apparent.
In Rev. 2:13, even the NIV translates μάρτυς as "witness":
"I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives."
"Was put to death" is the aorist passive indicative ἀπεκτάνθη (apektanthē), glossed as "to kill" in my tags for the lexical form μάρτυς. The implication here seems to me to be that a "martyr" (English) is someone put to death for their witness -- "martys" (Greek). Sounds right.
I believe I could also search for "martyr" in my English translations and see what that turns up, but I have prep work yet to do for tomorrow's service (I'm running screens) and I'd best move on to that now.
Hi again.
Um, you write, "If there are other groups of Christians, we are not told about them"- but the Lord did indeed tell us about them. See Matt. 24:36-51. (Surely 1 Thess 5:1-4 is to be borne in mind here too?)
P.S. *All* saints who have ever made it to heaven have gone through "great tribulation". The reference to "millions" of souls is about all the saints in history, not just those who went through THE Tribulation.
That section of Matt 24 doesn't mention anything about believers. Rapture enthusiasts project it into their doctrine by assuming these people get taken up to heaven, but that's not in the text. On the contrary, they are compared to those NOT in the boat when the Flood came! If anything, it implies that they get killed by God's judgments.
I don't see how you can minimize the suffering of martyrs by saying everyone suffers tribulation. I would argue that I haven't experienced tribulation, my life has been very cozy. Billions of believers have gone their whole lives without even having to worry about persecution.
"ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" [2Ti 3:12b KJV, caps mine]
"That section of Matt 24 doesn't mention anything about believers." Well, verses 44 & 45 talk about 'servants of the Lord', so...
"On the contrary, they are compared to those NOT in the boat when the Flood came!" It depends whether one ignores verse 31 or not! The word "Taken" in the context of v31 refers to the *Rapture* (also alluded to in v28).
"I don't see how you can minimize the suffering of martyrs by saying everyone suffers tribulation. I would argue that I haven't experienced tribulation, my life has been very cozy."
That may be because you are either a baby Christian, or not one at all. The Bible clearly states:
"...we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." [Act 14:22b KJV] See also John 7:7, 15:20 and 16:33.
Btw I can't see how a true Christian, writing to other *Christians*, would strip their Lord, master, redeemer and king of every single title on as many occasions as you do.
"That may be because you are either a baby Christian, or not one at all."
I won't defend myself against your accusation. But I suspect you haven't read your history of the martyrs, if you think that any persecution going on today in North America is comparable to what our spiritual forefathers had to endure. Judging every Christian who's ever lived as being invalid if they didn't get persecuted is something the Holy Spirit will have to persuade you about, if you have him.
And please do tell me what titles I have "stripped" Jesus of exactly.
You point to verses 44 + 45 of Matt 24 because it mentions "servants", and yet it clearly says that some will be disobedient, and will be cut into pieces and condemned by the Lord... So... Those people are going to be Raptured? As I said, there will most likely be a counterfeit version of Christianity in the last days, with many "servants" who have totally lost sight of the Bible's teachings. There will be many fake Christians when Jesus returns, but the 144,000 elect will be doing the true service of God.
I'm not sure if you're trying to defend Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or just finding wiggle room on less important details. You do bring up valid points, but they aren't affecting the much larger points I've established, which can't be ignored. Judging by your focus, it seems to me that you think there will be a significant number of Christians still alive when Jesus comes back.
There is no indication that the millions of Christians who are in the heavenly throne room are from throughout history, for example. The author suddenly notices their arrival, whereas before he did notice them before or feel the need to comment. In fact, he described the scene earlier and there were fewer people. Rev. 6:9-11 (the fith seal) tells us that the people are being killed, and that those in heaven will have to wait a "little while longer" for the rest to die -- and the angel specifically tells the author that they all came from great tribulation. Is a little while longer thousands of years? I suppose that's why you want to stretch the meaning of the word tribulation to include every Christian ever?
It seems you have a particular stance on this that you won't budge from, but I appreciate the dialogue. God bless you.
P.P.S. For a supposedly truth-loving Christian, you seem to have a real penchant for erecting straw men :o( For instance:
"Judging every Christian who's ever lived as being invalid if they didn't get persecuted is something the Holy Spirit will have to persuade you about, if you have him."
Where does the Bible EVER say "tribulation" can only comprise "persecution"?
"I suspect you haven't read your history of the martyrs, if you think that any persecution going on today in North America is comparable to what our spiritual forefathers had to endure."
I never said they were comparable. The two situations are so different, and for so many reasons, that it would be like comparing apples and dirt.
Sincere thanks for this. I am open to correction and will check my stance on the issue of those who "came from" great tribulation as you put it. (I'm most certainly *not* a pre-tribber btw.)
In the meantime, here are just *some* of my worries about you:
1) You frequently just refer to "Jesus" - without attaching ANY title (such as "Lord" or "Christ"). This almost NEVER happens in the Epistles.
2) In your last article, you took the name of the Lord in vain ("My G**").
3) In your reply to me regarding Matt 24:44-45, you set up a straw man. My point was that believers were in view in the passage. I did not claim .all. of them would ultimately be Raptured.
P.S. You say that "BILLIONS of believers have gone their whole lives without even having to worry about persecution" [Emphasis mine]. I'm really sorry, but this is laughable - and terrifying:
"Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it." [Mat 7:14 KJV, caps mine] See also Matt 20:16 & 22:14.
Romans, and Hebrews, we find plenty of discussion about a dichotomy between the Gentiles and Jews as believers. We find terms like "the fullness of the Gentiles" needing to happen before the conversion of the Jews, which will trigger eternal life for mankind, etc. Yes you can point to him saying "there is now no Jew or Gentile" but he also says there is no male or female, and clearly Paul himself writes about clear distinctions between those two in the church.
There is one Church essentially, but to help people understand the dichotomy and shift in prophecy I think it's useful to point out that we have promises about a Christian Israel that are yet to be fulfilled.
I don't feel comfortable injecting a different meaning into the 144,000. There's no evidence that it represents the 12 apostles, they are clearly called Israelites and each tribe is listed. This is an end time Prophecy, not simply food for thought or a general comment on the redemption of diverse people.