Hi Terry. I greatly appreciate you answering my question. I think you are right in your answer 2 Thessalonians is clearly about the day of the Lord. And furthermore, the day of the Lord is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians in 5:2!
5:2 reads: “ for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” That is fascinating, because the rapture crowd teaches that the day of the Lord is seven years after the rapture. They teach that the rapture is the event that comes like a thief in the night, and then claim that we know the Lord is coming seven years later. This notion seems to be contradicted by 5:2.
So I’m still studying and evaluating all of this.
I’m reading your book, God’s Fault. Very helpful, thank you!
It's hard for me to know what to do with such questions. I was raised "cultist" rather than dispensationalist, and was only introduced to dispensational pre-millennialism in something like 2018 (through a women's Bible study). The pre-millennialism part resembled what I had learned from the cult, but I didn't understand the "dispensational" part at the time. I returned to it in 2020. I had known something about psyops for 20 years, and I took a much greater interest in Bible prophecy during 2020, something my childhood cult had emphasized heavily.
I had a lot of trouble with a teaching that there was an "extra" resurrection that somehow precedes the "first" resurrection. Something about the math just didn't work. I allowed myself to be influenced by it, however, because I was encountering ministries online that, while promoting the rapture, were also warning people about the psyop in progress and doing a fairly decent job of it, something my home church at the time wouldn't think of doing, labeling people (like me) who did so "conspiracy theorists". What these other ministries seemed to lack in eschatological understanding, they made up for in "do not forsake assembling together", not that any of them were close enough to me, geographically, to make that possible.
The rapture issue came to a head for me this year, with one of the leaders of this pack beginning to use 2 Timothy 4:3-4 as a club against those that disagree with the rapture teaching, quoting the NKJV (out of context) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Wait a minute. I'm failing to "endure" because I question and examine teachings that would seem to contradict scripture? Huh? Being a Berean now is somehow bad?
The great irony here, of course, is that this passage could potentially be seen as applying to the pastor using it against those of us that examine his teaching, and that of those he hangs out with. I won't go quite so far as to accuse them -- but I did decide to withdraw from their groupthink, and from sending them any money. You just don't make accusations of the kind they are making in the face of having their "sound doctrine" ("healthy teaching" is a better translation) rightly questioned. They appear to have set a trap for themselves and fallen in. That is very unfortunate. Good teachers are very much needed.
So what about these questions we are discussing here? To a large degree I have to say I don't know, yet. I am having to go back and review and examine things I have noticed over the years, seeing where that leads in my own studies. I take into account what you and others write, and I bring in what I can learn from cross-referenced original-language commentaries that dig into the actual text of the Bible in a respectful way. There are different ways to understand things, and I don't shy away from that.
I am reluctant to conclude just yet that the faithful church is "killed off" in the tribulation. That some will still be (it's ongoing) is supported. Given what is happening now in the western church, I'm not sure there will be that many left anyway -- those not literally being killed off now are abandoning their witness (the primary meaning of "martyr" in the NT) instead. Words for "martyr" do not appear in Rev. 7. I haven't studied this extensively, but the root looks like it may have shifted emphasis around the 2nd century or so. The verb μαρτυρέω (martyreō) appears in Rev. 1:2 in reference to John's witness, and in many forms in many places elsewhere. It can refer to martyrdom as we understand it now, I believe, but it doesn't usually and I can't off the top of my head think of where it does.
But keep exploring this. The last thing we need is to all try to "think the same". Unity does not result from our own efforts at it.
Um, you write, "If there are other groups of Christians, we are not told about them"- but the Lord did indeed tell us about them. See Matt. 24:36-51. (Surely 1 Thess 5:1-4 is to be borne in mind here too?)
P.S. *All* saints who have ever made it to heaven have gone through "great tribulation". The reference to "millions" of souls is about all the saints in history, not just those who went through THE Tribulation.
Appreciate your thoughtful insights and for once its refreshing to read that there is no "rapture of the church" as taught by many dispensationalists. Not sure though about your use of the term Gentile Church. My understanding of Scripture is that there is one church. Galatians 3:26-29.
With reference to the 144,000 is this not a figurative number to represent all those for whom Christ died? It is a complete number but not a defined literal number as evidenced by Rev. 14 - those who did not worship the beast. Abraham is with Christ now. Romans 4:3. Abraham was not descended from any of the 12 tribes.
Those who are "seaĺed" are all those who trust Christ for salvation. This is the opposite of the "mark of the beast".
We are living in the gospel age now. That is the message of the angel in Rev. 14:6, immediately followed by a warning of forthcoming judgement.
It is by preaching the Gospel that people are saved. Romans 10:17 not beacuse they are physical descendants from the 12 tribes.
12 tribes x 12 apostles x 1000 = 144,000 a number that represents all OT and NT saints.
Hi Terry. I greatly appreciate you answering my question. I think you are right in your answer 2 Thessalonians is clearly about the day of the Lord. And furthermore, the day of the Lord is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians in 5:2!
5:2 reads: “ for you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.” That is fascinating, because the rapture crowd teaches that the day of the Lord is seven years after the rapture. They teach that the rapture is the event that comes like a thief in the night, and then claim that we know the Lord is coming seven years later. This notion seems to be contradicted by 5:2.
So I’m still studying and evaluating all of this.
I’m reading your book, God’s Fault. Very helpful, thank you!
It's hard for me to know what to do with such questions. I was raised "cultist" rather than dispensationalist, and was only introduced to dispensational pre-millennialism in something like 2018 (through a women's Bible study). The pre-millennialism part resembled what I had learned from the cult, but I didn't understand the "dispensational" part at the time. I returned to it in 2020. I had known something about psyops for 20 years, and I took a much greater interest in Bible prophecy during 2020, something my childhood cult had emphasized heavily.
I had a lot of trouble with a teaching that there was an "extra" resurrection that somehow precedes the "first" resurrection. Something about the math just didn't work. I allowed myself to be influenced by it, however, because I was encountering ministries online that, while promoting the rapture, were also warning people about the psyop in progress and doing a fairly decent job of it, something my home church at the time wouldn't think of doing, labeling people (like me) who did so "conspiracy theorists". What these other ministries seemed to lack in eschatological understanding, they made up for in "do not forsake assembling together", not that any of them were close enough to me, geographically, to make that possible.
The rapture issue came to a head for me this year, with one of the leaders of this pack beginning to use 2 Timothy 4:3-4 as a club against those that disagree with the rapture teaching, quoting the NKJV (out of context) "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."
Wait a minute. I'm failing to "endure" because I question and examine teachings that would seem to contradict scripture? Huh? Being a Berean now is somehow bad?
The great irony here, of course, is that this passage could potentially be seen as applying to the pastor using it against those of us that examine his teaching, and that of those he hangs out with. I won't go quite so far as to accuse them -- but I did decide to withdraw from their groupthink, and from sending them any money. You just don't make accusations of the kind they are making in the face of having their "sound doctrine" ("healthy teaching" is a better translation) rightly questioned. They appear to have set a trap for themselves and fallen in. That is very unfortunate. Good teachers are very much needed.
So what about these questions we are discussing here? To a large degree I have to say I don't know, yet. I am having to go back and review and examine things I have noticed over the years, seeing where that leads in my own studies. I take into account what you and others write, and I bring in what I can learn from cross-referenced original-language commentaries that dig into the actual text of the Bible in a respectful way. There are different ways to understand things, and I don't shy away from that.
I am reluctant to conclude just yet that the faithful church is "killed off" in the tribulation. That some will still be (it's ongoing) is supported. Given what is happening now in the western church, I'm not sure there will be that many left anyway -- those not literally being killed off now are abandoning their witness (the primary meaning of "martyr" in the NT) instead. Words for "martyr" do not appear in Rev. 7. I haven't studied this extensively, but the root looks like it may have shifted emphasis around the 2nd century or so. The verb μαρτυρέω (martyreō) appears in Rev. 1:2 in reference to John's witness, and in many forms in many places elsewhere. It can refer to martyrdom as we understand it now, I believe, but it doesn't usually and I can't off the top of my head think of where it does.
But keep exploring this. The last thing we need is to all try to "think the same". Unity does not result from our own efforts at it.
Hi again.
Um, you write, "If there are other groups of Christians, we are not told about them"- but the Lord did indeed tell us about them. See Matt. 24:36-51. (Surely 1 Thess 5:1-4 is to be borne in mind here too?)
P.S. *All* saints who have ever made it to heaven have gone through "great tribulation". The reference to "millions" of souls is about all the saints in history, not just those who went through THE Tribulation.
Appreciate your thoughtful insights and for once its refreshing to read that there is no "rapture of the church" as taught by many dispensationalists. Not sure though about your use of the term Gentile Church. My understanding of Scripture is that there is one church. Galatians 3:26-29.
With reference to the 144,000 is this not a figurative number to represent all those for whom Christ died? It is a complete number but not a defined literal number as evidenced by Rev. 14 - those who did not worship the beast. Abraham is with Christ now. Romans 4:3. Abraham was not descended from any of the 12 tribes.
Those who are "seaĺed" are all those who trust Christ for salvation. This is the opposite of the "mark of the beast".
We are living in the gospel age now. That is the message of the angel in Rev. 14:6, immediately followed by a warning of forthcoming judgement.
It is by preaching the Gospel that people are saved. Romans 10:17 not beacuse they are physical descendants from the 12 tribes.
12 tribes x 12 apostles x 1000 = 144,000 a number that represents all OT and NT saints.
Best regards.